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  #1  
07-27-2012, 10:22 AM
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Square jaw is highly attractive in both women and men? So i doubt that testosterone affects jaw angle

here's some links with women with big jaws

http://www.womenlargejaw.com/square-jaw-theory

http://www.womenlargejaw.com/square-...-not-masculine

I'm gonna try to understand what affects jaw angles, with the assumption that in our world there's nothing casual there must be a cause for the square jaw.

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  #2  
07-27-2012, 10:30 AM
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It's 100% genetic. Testosteone has no effect, but it is correlated because of the correlation with good genes.

Think of bone structure on a continuum.

The worst is the long, narrow face with underdeveloped cheekbones and jaws.

At the other extreme is the compact, broad face with flared cheekbones and square jaws. This is attractive in both men AND women because it indicates that the person has good genes that allowed him to develop a proportional, robust face.

  #3  
07-27-2012, 10:31 AM
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I think i have a decent square angle what's missing is the size, i need to take human growth hormone

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  #4  
07-27-2012, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looks Fundamentalist View Post
It's 100% genetic. Testosteone has no effect, but it is correlated because of the correlation with good genes.

Think of bone structure on a continuum.

The worst is the long, narrow face with underdeveloped cheekbones and jaws.

At the other extreme is the compact, broad face with flared cheekbones and square jaws.
That's not a good statement, if you understand evolution you would understand that SOMETHING must play a role to cause it, if it was 100% genetic we wouldn't evolve, we would stay the same inheredind the genes of our parents, that means that there's evolution in our lives

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  #5  
07-27-2012, 10:43 AM
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I dunno. I think it IS genetic. But for the genes to be expressed you need good nutrition and so on.

Testosterone and growth hormone bring out the square jaw during puberty but you need a good environment for those hormones to operate most effectively. Good diet. Not too much stress. No major illness etc

  #6  
07-27-2012, 11:02 AM
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Pretty interesting website, and I have noticed that, in general, the size of bones is generally not a good way to determine "masculinity/femininity" (or dominance/submissiveness) in a face, except the brow bone. But that is just because with a developed brow bone it is totally impossible to have raised eyebrows (while you can have non-raised eyebrows without a developed browbone, like Vin Diesel's eyebrows which are not super low/dominant but also not high/feminine). Dominance is a much more subtle factor, somehow, which I haven't figured out yet. Basically a lot of male models have very well-developed bones yet are not very dominant-looking without proper lighting and makeup. Thomas Hoefnagels is an obvious exception, but that Danish guy for example has a very feminine (yet highly symmetrical and thus attractive) face.

I think it is a stretch to say that a big mandible equals higher genetic quality, though. It is simply a cultural preference influenced by Hollywood. If all humans had always preferred more square jaws then square jaws would be much less rare. Universally only symmetry has always been preferred, which is why you see that all(!) attractive people are above average in symmetry but not all have square jaws.

That said, square jaws, especially for men and to a lesser extent women, is a facial fashion trend that will most likely outlast our generation (as it has already outlasted the one of our parents) and therefore I would adopt a "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality and raise the funds you need to get a square jaw from the surgeon.

Like I said, I think it is BS to state that square jaw = better genetic quality. If that were true, having a square jaw would be very prominent among athletes and elite soldiers, but it is not. Symmetry, however, is above average in all professions that require high physical genetic quality (athletes, entertainers(movie, music etc) and elite soldiers).

To conclude, the square jaw is, imo, a fad which privileges those who are lucky to have it. The square jaw, imo, only correlates very lightly with "genetic quality".

  #7  
07-27-2012, 11:12 AM
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I'm researching a little bit, seems like chewing affects the square jaw look, i'm starting to do clenching exercises, i don't know if it's a fashion or not, i doubt it, the square jaw isn't popular because our lives are like shit, little sport, a lot of sugar

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  #8  
07-27-2012, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CybeI View Post
I'm researching a little bit, seems like chewing affects the square jaw look, i'm starting to do clenching exercises, i don't know if it's a fashion or not, i doubt it, the square jaw isn't popular because our lives are like shit, little sport, a lot of sugar
I did this and it is legit, but only my left jaw grew lol, noticeably so even. Would've looked good if it grew symmetrically.

So I stopped doing it because I don't want to "manage" my jaw for the rest of my life and rather just get symmetric implants then.

  #9  
07-27-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger View Post
I did this and it is legit, but only my left jaw grew lol, noticeably so even. Would've looked good if it grew symmetrically.

So I stopped doing it because I don't want to "manage" my jaw for the rest of my life and rather just get symmetric implants then.
Were you chewing gum or just clenching?
Muscle exercises affect the bone structure too, people that do heavy lifting really increase bone density. So i dunno about the jaw, maybe?
Plus on that site thay said that its linked to cheekbones size too

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  #10  
07-27-2012, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CybeI View Post
Were you chewing gum or just clenching?
I think that "muscle" exercises affect the bone structure too, people that do heavy lifting really increase bone density.
Plus on that site thay said that its linked to cheekbones
just clenching







  #11  
07-27-2012, 11:20 AM
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I think that you can develop jaw muscles which probably helps a lot. Lets say you are doing heavy lifting and eating a lot of meat and chewing it well. That has gotta be beneficial

  #12  
07-27-2012, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colver84 View Post
I think that you can develop jaw muscles which probably helps a lot. Lets say you are doing heavy lifting and eating a lot of meat and chewing it well. That has gotta be beneficial
Yeah, plus i think it slowly affects its bone density too, i'm not sure i would need to research it, i'm gonna do jaw exercises starting from today

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  #13  
07-27-2012, 11:27 AM
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A little more info
http://www.womenlargejaw.com/documents
http://www.womenlargejaw.com/bite-force

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  #14  
07-27-2012, 11:30 AM
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Does bone density make your bones look stronger? I know that the bone length and shape is pretty much set in stone by around 18

  #15  
07-27-2012, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colver84 View Post
Does bone density make your bones look stronger? I know that the bone length and shape is pretty much set in stone by around 18
18 for women 24 for men
That's about the lenght

Bone density changes through your whole life though and yes it makes you appear stronger, people who lift develop bigger hands( by training their greeps) bigger forearms etc, so for the jaw/cheekbones should be the same

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  #16  
07-27-2012, 11:47 AM
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A square jaw is genetic, the more square your chin is, the more testosterone you produce. A square jaw isn't as masculine as a angled jaw, like a straight like from the chin to the ear.

I read up on it.







  #17  
07-27-2012, 11:51 AM
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Strong – and weak – muscle factors
Why are these differences in mandibular morphology important? In horizontal growers, the angles at which the muscles work produce much masticatory force. In vertical growers, the angles at which the muscles work produce much less force.12 Therefore, horizontal growers can be referred to as strong-muscled patients, and vertical growers can be referred to as weak-muscled, patients. In Figure 5, the morphological differences are highlighted between the two growth patterns as viewed on lateral cephalometric x-rays. The morphological differences are numerous, but five are especially diagnostic.

First, strong-muscled patients have relatively acute gonial angles; in weak-muscled patients, the gonial angle tends to be obtuse.13, 14 Second, the shape of the lower border of the mandible differs in the two types of patients. In strong-muscled patients, a double curvature on the lower border consists of a concavity near the gonial angle and a convexity near the anterior portion of the lower border. Weak-muscled patients lack this double curvature and instead exhibit a concave lower border. Third, strong-muscled patients have a radiopaque symphysis; in weak-muscled patients, this area is more radiolucent.2 Fourth, the more acute the symphyseal inclination, the more the patient tends to be strong-muscled. This can be quantified by a simple cephalometric measurement of the angle between Go-Gn and the chin line (the line from pognion (Po) to infradentale (Id) – the most anterosuperior point on the mandibular alveolar ridge) (Fig. 6). 11 A range of 70° ± 4° is normal: 65° or less indicates that the patient is strong-muscled; 75° or more indicates that the patint is weak muscled

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  #18  
07-27-2012, 11:52 AM
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Determination of the force: Assessing a patient’s occlusal force capability pre-operatively is currently difficult due to the lack of suitable equipment. Studies such as Carlsson and Haraldson (1985) have shown that biting forces increased by 85% from the pre-prosthetic levels, during the first 2 months of prosthesis function. Thus initial bite force assessment may not predict the eventual level that may develop.

Wolff’s Law (1949) states that, “Every change in the use or static relations of a bone leads not only to a change in its internal structure and architecture but also to a change in its external form and function.” Given that the masseter and the medial pterygoid muscles are the principle muscles of mastication enclosing the angle of the jaw, it is postulated by the authors that the bony morphology underlying the gonial angle may provide a reliable expression of the inherent muscular biting power of any individual. A larger muscular force would theoretically produce a more acute angle and a weaker force a more obtuse one.

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  #19  
07-27-2012, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldAround View Post
A square jaw is genetic, the more square your chin is, the more testosterone you produce. A square jaw isn't as masculine as a angled jaw, like a straight like from the chin to the ear.

I read up on it.
You do the math



90° angle = perfect

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  #20  
07-27-2012, 11:56 AM
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I read that in women estrogen caps bone growth. So if a woman grows a strong jaw it means she is low in estrogen and therefore unattractive

  #21  
07-27-2012, 11:58 AM
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Look how beautiful it appears


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  #22  
07-27-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colver84 View Post
I read that in women estrogen caps bone growth. So if a woman grows a strong jaw it means she is low in estrogen and therefore unattractive
Basically people with low chew power develop their faces vertically and get the narrow ugly face syndrome, instead people with high clenching power develop the jaw horizzontally getting the beautiful modellesque/hollywodian jaw

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  #23  
07-27-2012, 12:22 PM
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tbh yes it is beautiful in women but I find more rounded jaws much more sexually appealing personally.

I do not find Angelina Jolie very attractive, although I can see she is certainly very beautiful. Other men will most likely find her more attractive. I think her jaw is just too much. Too straight.

There are women with a wide jaw whom I find very attractive is Julie Bowen (surprisingly she is also white lol), Sophia Vergara and Sarah Hyland who, incidentally, are all co-stars in the series "Modern Family" (which is pretty gay but I like it anyway).

I also think that square jaw != wide jaw. A wide jaw is attractive. The women quoted above all have reasonably wide jaws, however they are "square" (90degree angled) in varying degrees and all are less angular than Angelina Jolie.

I think for women, slightly wider is better than narrow and more than average angled but not too much.

Most of the examples on that website fall in the category too much and are not attractive imo.

  #24  
07-27-2012, 12:23 PM
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By the way, Vin Diesel is pretty ugly lol. Not a good example of a good looking narrower jawed face. It's only because he has such a big muscular body, deep voice and acting talent that he appears attractive. His face, however, is not very good looking.

  #25  
07-27-2012, 12:25 PM
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So if you ever had a child here's what you should do:
Never ever buy him candies, he'll only eat unprocessed food, no simple sugars, heavy jaw exercises 4 times a week, plays a sport to maximize his testosterone and hgh, force him to do meditation to decrease stress(and increase his hgh), you'll have good chances to develop a good looking kid, it's also important that the mother won't be stressed when pregnant, eat healthy, essentials fatty acids are very important, so the kid can develop symmetrically.

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  #26  
07-27-2012, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger View Post
By the way, Vin Diesel is pretty ugly lol. Not a good example of a good looking narrower jawed face. It's only because he has such a big muscular body, deep voice and acting talent that he appears attractive. His face, however, is not very good looking.
No it wasn't an example of an attractive face, he looks pretty masculine but certainly isn't really attractive, you don't find angelina jolie attractive because she's not your type(nor she's mine) but did you look at the other asian in the link in the first post? She has a square face too and DAMN she's hot

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  #27  
07-27-2012, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CybeI View Post
No it wasn't an example of an attractive face, he looks pretty masculine but certainly isn't really attractive, you don't find angelina jolie attractive because she's not your type(nor she's mine) but did you look at the other asian in the link in the first post? She has a square face too and DAMN she's hot
Clavell? Meh, she is all right... not really I don't like her actually. I guess she's not my type either due to jaw angle. Those are Brad Pitt level jaws. Definitely too much. Not feminine.

Look at the women I posted. They all have wider than average (hollywood-esque) jaws but they are not so angled and their jaw muscle is not so prominent.

I have to add that a pure lateral view makes almost anyone look ugly.

Also I've been browsing the LA OKCupid pages a little bit just to mentally masturbate and motivate myself to get my shit together and get over there (+ get surgery to get with the hot wimminz) and here's an example of a relatively normal Asian girl who, imo, has both perfect width and angle: http://www.okcupid.com/profile/AnneChloe/photos

Also, in accordance with the "Self seeking like theory" (in case you don't know it look it the fuck up) I am compiling images of women whose overall jaw shape I like so my surgeon can shape my jaw just like theirs.

What's funny is that these women are so pretty that I like them a lot even though my jaw shape is slightly different. According to the self-seeking like theory, I would probably match better with something like: http://www.okcupid.com/profile/Cassandra_123 (tbh I like this girl better than the former jaw-wise anyway)

Jaws are fascinating.

(Btw I am collecting faces to get even better understanding of facial attractiveness in both men and women. I am also collecting men so it's all in the name of research. Not creeping on these girls, don't care about them personally is just for the pics).

Edit: Here's another example of a more wide yet less angular jaw http://www.okcupid.com/profile/rox_venice/photos

Much better than those very angular man-jaws.

  #28  
07-27-2012, 12:45 PM
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They have good jaw angles, nothing holliwodesque though, the article in my first post was proving that jaw angle is not a masculine trait as it's not affected by masculine hormones.
I find the science of attraction interesting, i still don't understand the differences in people's liking, the attraction for similar faces definitely makes sense as evolutionarily speaking is used to preserve the specie(similar genes to you), but then again i don't understand when we are attracted to other races.

Anyway i'm really attracted to women with good jaw angles, not all kind of women though only a few

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  #29  
07-27-2012, 12:49 PM
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Btw those women all have good( ie low) jaw angles, you're just seeing them from the front and not from the profile

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  #30  
07-27-2012, 12:52 PM
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Most of the women on that site you posted look very "primitive" to me, especially from the side. Like they belong in the stone age. Also men with overly angular mandibles look primitive to me (and to most other people). Women do not have an outspoken preference for men with Brad Pitt-esque jaws. They like Brad Pitt because of his other, more feminine features and symmetry as well as his physique and hollywood fame.

Most people prefer the jaws I have been pointing out in both men and women. Brad Pitt is an exception but only because his other features are very soft and sweet/feminine so they even out his primitiveness. The same goes for Sugar.

Here is a man with an ideal jaw: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2943468/

By the way, here is a clip of a lovescene between said perfect man and a perfect girl (ok maybe not I Find her jaw a bit too angular again) with the perfect background music IN FUCKING SPACE!!!!



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