NLP is not based on science. NLP is just something pulled out of someone's ass

[MrShit]

Originally Posted by gash

And with mystery method, the results are far less specific than NLP.

The only way to measure success with the mystery method is based on whether girls like u or hook up with u because of it.

Which is slightly harder to measure than whether u can hypnotise someone.

And can be based on anything. the girl could like u anyway, the MM may be irrelevant.

But if you use NLP to hypnotise someone or something like that, they either get hypnotised or they dont simple.

And you cant hypnotise someone by placebo.

But yes MM is a much better analogy than the others which were totally false.

SO with my help you have found a better analogy, good job.

NLP isn't hypnosis. Actually all the analogies are relevant, because your argument was that it was valid because a lot of people believed in its effect. The shallow details are irrelevant, the structural error of your reasoning is that you conclude that a lot of people believing in its effect means it's effective. The only thing it actually proves is that a lot of people believe in the effect of NLP.

When you go to college you'll learn about logic in philosophy class, I think it'll save you a lot of frustration and make you reconsider a lot of what you currently believe.

[gash]

Originally Posted by MrShit

NLP isn't hypnosis. Actually all the analogies are relevant, because your argument was that it was valid because a lot of people believed in its effect. The shallow details are irrelevant, the structural error of your reasoning is that you conclude that a lot of people believing in its effect means it's effective. The only thing it actually proves is that a lot of people believe in the effect of NLP.

When you go to college you'll learn about logic in philosophy class, I think it'll save you a lot of frustration and make you reconsider a lot of what you currently believe.

NLP is a form of hypnosis. And I will never go to college cos im English. So I wont end up as closeminded as u.

Now believing in the effect of something, based on personal experience, when multiplied by the 100s of thousands of people who have done it and tested it, that is valid proof that it works.

But that is different from an untestable belief such as christianity.

You are the one who needs to learn, not to be arrogant in assuming u are smarter when you are not.

Have you ever heard of thick people being very good at arguments because they are too thick to understand that they have lost, well that is you in a nutshell.

You Tube

[MrShit]

Originally Posted by gash

NLP is a form of hypnosis. And I will never go to college cos im English. So I wont end up as closeminded as u.

Now believing in the effect of something, based on personal experience, when multiplied by the 100s of thousands of people who have done it and tested it, that is valid proof that it works.

But that is different from an untestable belief such as christianity.

You are the one who needs to learn, not to be arrogant in assuming u are smarter when you are not.

Have you ever heard of thick people being very good at arguments because they are too thick to understand that they have lost, well that is you in a nutshell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYFQZFL0yoo

Ok then, that's proof to you. This topic is about scientific evidence. Whatever it takes for you to believe something is irrelevant.

[gash]

Originally Posted by MrShit

Ok then, that's proof to you. This topic is about scientific evidence. Whatever it takes for you to believe something is irrelevant.

So if you did something, and it worked, but it was not yet scientifically proved, although it was based on concepts being discovered in science, you would still not believe in it?

Well then I am glad I dont think like you but that is just madness.

At first I thought you were someone to be debated, but now I realise you are just closed-minded, ignorant and ultimately afraid of the truth.

[MrShit]

Originally Posted by gash

So if you did something, and it worked, but it was not yet scientifically proved, although it was based on concepts being discovered in science, you would still not believe in it?

Well then I am glad I dont think like you but that is just madness.

At first I thought you were someone to be debated, but now I realise you are just closed-minded, ignorant and ultimately afraid of the truth.

I reliase that my own POW is not unbiased, I might be under belief bias or confirmation bias, which is relatively normal for everyone. For me personally, it might be enough in some situations , but when it comes to recommending advice to others or testing whether something actually works and isn't just a placebo of some kind, I'm always open to the possibility of being proved wrong by a more objective, controlled measure (science). However emotionally loaded my point of view might be, it doesn't change how the world is. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, no matter how much I "feel" like I'm right, or how personally involved I am in the subject.

Now I'd like you to explain how this makes me ignorant, close-minded and afraid of the truth. In detail.

[gash]

Originally Posted by MrShit

I reliase that my own POW is not unbiased, I might be under belief bias or confirmation bias, which is relatively normal for everyone. For me personally, it might be enough in some situations , but when it comes to recommending advice to others or testing whether something actually works and isn't just a placebo of some kind, I'm always open to the possibility of being proved wrong by a more objective, controlled measure (science). However emotionally loaded my point of view might be, it doesn't change how the world is. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, no matter how much I "feel" like I'm right, or how personally involved I am in the subject.

Now I'd like you to explain how this makes me ignorant, close-minded and afraid of the truth. In detail.

You are ignorant because you don't know much about anything.

You are close-minded because you are only willing to accept things that are approved by the mainstream, and you do not even consider anything else as possible regardless of the evidence it is valid.

You are afraid of the truth because when someone does show you evidence you just ignore it. You block out anything that doesn't fit what you believe.

[MrShit]

Originally Posted by gash

You are ignorant because you don't know much about anything.

You are close-minded because you are only willing to accept things that are approved by the mainstream, and you do not even consider anything else as possible regardless of the evidence it is valid.

You are afraid of the truth because when someone does show you evidence you just ignore it. You block out anything that doesn't fit what you believe.

You know what, it's ok. If you want to go around thinking that, I don't really mind. You seem to have made up your mind anyways and you apparently ignored everything I wrote in my last post.

It doesn't make NLP any more scientifically valid.

[gash]

Originally Posted by MrShit

You know what, it's ok. If you want to go around thinking that, I don't really mind. You seem to have made up your mind anyways and you apparently ignored everything I wrote in my last post.

It doesn't make NLP any more scientifically valid.

Yea lets agree to disagree.

[Chaxi]

Originally Posted by gash

So if you did something, and it worked, but it was not yet scientifically proved, although it was based on concepts being discovered in science, you would still not believe in it?

Well then I am glad I dont think like you but that is just madness.

At first I thought you were someone to be debated, but now I realise you are just closed-minded, ignorant and ultimately afraid of the truth.

There is no "one" truth. Different people have different things that work for them. For some people, just talking about their issues gets them out. For some like me, hypnosis works well in getting the mind to see better ways of handling things it didn't before. For some people, shamanism works too! It depends.

MrShit, when you talk about the scientific validity of NLP, you are referring to the models they use concerning the links between mind and body, or the different levels of cognition, right? Not the stuff that is inspired by Gestalt and Ericksonian hypnosis?

[MrShit]

Originally Posted by Chaxi

There is no "one" truth. Different people have different things that work for them. For some people, just talking about their issues gets them out. For some like me, hypnosis works well in getting the mind to see better ways of handling things it didn't before. For some people, shamanism works too! It depends.

MrShit, when you talk about the scientific validity of NLP, you are referring to the models they use concerning the links between mind and body, or the different levels of cognition, right? Not the stuff that is inspired by Gestalt and Ericksonian hypnosis?

I'm talking about every testable claim that (to my knowledge at least, from frogs to princes and various nlp sites) has been made. NLP has borrowed a lot of things from other diciplines (classical conditioning, mirroring, hypnosis) but this does not validate the theory behind NLP or NLP as a practice in itself anymore then giving someone aspirin while masturbating validates masturbatory treatment against headaches (just to illustrate).

[Japan]

Originally Posted by MrShit

I'm talking about every testable claim that (to my knowledge at least, from frogs to princes and various nlp sites) has been made. NLP has borrowed a lot of things from other diciplines (classical conditioning, mirroring, hypnosis) but this does not validate the theory behind NLP or NLP as a practice in itself anymore then giving someone aspirin while masturbating validates masturbatory treatment against headaches (just to illustrate).

If NLP is not real how come it works?

[gash]

Originally Posted by MrShit

I'm talking about every testable claim that (to my knowledge at least, from frogs to princes and various nlp sites) has been made. NLP has borrowed a lot of things from other diciplines (classical conditioning, mirroring, hypnosis) but this does not validate the theory behind NLP or NLP as a practice in itself anymore then giving someone aspirin while masturbating validates masturbatory treatment against headaches (just to illustrate).

I crown you king of false analogies.

you are King Mrshit of the Kingdom of False Analogy.

May your reign be long

[MrShit]

Originally Posted by gash

I crown you king of false analogies.

you are King Mrshit of the Kingdom of False Analogy.

May your reign be long

It's not false just because you don't understand it.

In my NLP example, the causal agent is hypnosis, while the irrelevant agent is NLP. Hypnosis would have the same effect whether NLP was present or not.

I'm pretty sure you can guess the roles in the analogy.

[gash]

Originally Posted by MrShit

It's not false just because you don't understand it.

In my NLP example, the causal agent is hypnosis, while the irrelevant agent is NLP. Hypnosis would have the same effect whether NLP was present or not.

I'm pretty sure you can guess the roles in the analogy.

Yea , the masturbating while taking aspirin analogy is far too intellectual for me.

[MrShit]

Originally Posted by gash

Yea , the masturbating while taking aspirin analogy is far too intellectual for me.

So you understand it after all?

Take some time to think before you type and you won't misunderstand so much of what I say. I'm not trying to insult you by writing this, I used to do the same thing that you do now myself.

[Stinger]

Originally Posted by MrShit

NLP isn't hypnosis.

NLP patterns alpha state hypnosis... but they have never done studies from that perspective, and the plain truth is, NLP Comprehensive would never want that to happen. Why? NLP community is pretty much build like a cult.

NLP Comprehensive promises solution to all your problems, and eternal happiness, and it shrouds its practices into mystery using technobabble like "submodalities", "mirroring", "timelines" etc. Sounds pretty cool, and sounds like NLP Comprehensive would have invented something new and revolutionary. While patterns do work, instructions are so misleading that no subject can have permanent change using them without having good knowledge about hypnosis. NLP faithfuls use patterns, but things never seem to go exactly like they are supposed to go... By keeping faithfuls in the dark, NLP Comprehensive can encourage people to return again and again to buy latest book and go to the latest seminar to improve their lifes.

Bandler and Grinder are also pretty good spin-doctors. From the very beginning, they made whole thing into freak circus, making their best not to work with the scientific community. By being total assholes, they antangonized scientific community. This created wonderful breeding ground for cult mentality. "Big, bad scientific community doesn't understand our wonderful inventions, but you lucky one, are one the first to taste greatest revolution in human history, NLP." Either you are with us or against us.

If NLP patterns would be widely accepted as hypnosis, it would literally pull the rug from under of NLP. They wouldn't be marketing anything revolutionary, just poorly implemented hypnosis. There wouldn't be any way to dodge questions like why NLP master practitioners are doing hypnotherapy without proper licenses and/or training? Many cultists would also lose their faith, and probably understand, what kind of trick NLP Comprehensive has played on them. And so on.

Just something to think about.

[L U C I F E R]

[Chaxi]

Originally Posted by Stinger

NLP patterns alpha state hypnosis... but they have never done studies from that perspective, and the plain truth is, NLP Comprehensive would never want that to happen. Why? NLP community is pretty much build like a cult.

NLP Comprehensive promises solution to all your problems, and eternal happiness, and it shrouds its practices into mystery using technobabble like "submodalities", "mirroring", "timelines" etc. Sounds pretty cool, and sounds like NLP Comprehensive would have invented something new and revolutionary. While patterns do work, instructions are so misleading that no subject can have permanent change using them without having good knowledge about hypnosis. NLP faithfuls use patterns, but things never seem to go exactly like they are supposed to go... By keeping faithfuls in the dark, NLP Comprehensive can encourage people to return again and again to buy latest book and go to the latest seminar to improve their lifes.

Bandler and Grinder are also pretty good spin-doctors. From the very beginning, they made whole thing into freak circus, making their best not to work with the scientific community. By being total assholes, they antangonized scientific community. This created wonderful breeding ground for cult mentality. "Big, bad scientific community doesn't understand our wonderful inventions, but you lucky one, are one the first to taste greatest revolution in human history, NLP." Either you are with us or against us.

If NLP patterns would be widely accepted as hypnosis, it would literally pull the rug from under of NLP. They wouldn't be marketing anything revolutionary, just poorly implemented hypnosis. There wouldn't be any way to dodge questions like why NLP master practitioners are doing hypnotherapy without proper licenses and/or training? Many cultists would also lose their faith, and probably understand, what kind of trick NLP Comprehensive has played on them. And so on.

Just something to think about.

True. NLP is in many aspects repackaged hypnosis, with a pseudo-scientific twist to make it sound clever, while hypnosis works a lot with instinct, intuition and empathy. I'm pretty sure that the reason why NLP works less than hypnosis is because of the pseudo-scientific approach added to a very instinctive phenomenon such as hypnosis.

Stinger made an interesting point when he says that you can hardly be very good at curing people with NLP without knowing hypnosis. It's also my experience. NLP uses a lot of patterns which can work, but in situation, the hypnotic skills of the therapist will make the difference. At best, NLP can be a useful tool, like everything that gives a new way of looking at things. Yet, the cure will come from the therapist skills and intuition.

[gash]

Sounds like they have done the classic move.

Take a core of truth, and then cover it and distort it so that it can be abused by them.

The core of truth will let people know there is some validity to it, but because it is so hidden they will spend the whole time pinning down that truth.

[Stinger]

Originally Posted by Chaxi

I'm pretty sure that the reason why NLP works less than hypnosis is because of the pseudo-scientific approach added to a very instinctive phenomenon such as hypnosis.

"Proper" hypnosis is so effective because subject bypasses their critical factor. They don't do any judgements about what they hear, and nearly anything presented is acceptable.

For example, there is nothing special about putting memories into "frame", changing their "brightness" and putting them into mind's "backwall" so that they don't bother subject anymore. Just by doing it this way, we give mind easy way to understand what we are aiming for, and it gives mind also proper framework to deal with the situation. This works 99 percent of time, because we can except certain things to have certain symbolic meaning in the western culture.

Sure, whole situation is totally irrational by definition, and obviously, neither I or subject doesn't have slightest clue is there actually "mind's backwall". It is just that the the subject's mind just doesn't care about this "problem", because it doesn't do currently any judgements. It just does like asked, and ta-dah, subject feels better about the memory. And I could do same thing in hundred other ways, but hypnotherapy is all about giving subject suitable framework to deal with situation, and using convincers reinforce change.

NLP patterns, in the other hand, are typically done in the level of mind where subject's mind still does judgements. Any beliefs, ideas, past experiences affect greatly good effect pattern is going to have. NLP faithfuls, of course, do get best results, because they believe on it on subconscious level. But random dude on the street? Who knows. It just depens on the situation.

[Chaxi]

Yeah. My hypnotherapist only used NLP patterns or symbolism when i was already in a hypnotic trance.

[Kick]

Originally Posted by Stinger

But random dude on the street? Who knows. It just depens on the situation.

Translation: It's worthless snake oil that does nothing but rip off the vulnerable and make money for scammers like stinger.

[Chaxi]

Originally Posted by Kick

Translation: It's worthless snake oil that does nothing but rip off the vulnerable and make money for scammers like stinger.

Why so much hate? The debate was interesting, and Stinger's point of view is actually very interesting.

Go masturbate to Stinger somewhere else.

[twothreeoh]

Originally Posted by Chaxi

Why so much hate? The debate was interesting, and Stinger's point of view is actually very interesting.

Go masturbate to Stinger somewhere else.

No offense Chaxi, I'd prefer if Kick hate-masturbated right here to Stinger, Finland's own hypnotist-farmer-rapist.

Kick, do you need to set up a web cam, or can you just hate-masturbate over the internet with your mind?

[AlexandruGeorgescu]

http://www.skepdic.com/neurolin.html
http://knol.google.com/k/neurolingui...282D%29science
http://www.adaringadventure.com/life...is-nlp-a-scam/
http://www.23nlpeople.com/NLP/scammi...public_ltd.php

How to Sell a Pseudoscience by Anthony R. Pratkanis
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/pratkanis.htm

You Tube

You Tube

You Tube

You Tube

[MrShit]

Originally Posted by AlexandruGeorgescu

http://www.skepdic.com/neurolin.html
http://knol.google.com/k/neurolingui...282D%29science
http://www.adaringadventure.com/life...is-nlp-a-scam/
http://www.23nlpeople.com/NLP/scammi...public_ltd.php

How to Sell a Pseudoscience by Anthony R. Pratkanis
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/pratkanis.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdVAjBcAhKw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uvcQNnkdgc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNlqFBxAbes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LMHvlps2VA

One of the best posts in this entire topic

[MrShit]

Originally Posted by AlexandruGeorgescu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LMHvlps2VA

Also LOL at bandler here. He actually, If I heard him correctly, rejects science because it attempts to measure things, instead of (get this) asking him.

Yes, he actually says that. "Why haven't anyone asked me?"

Last two minutes.

[Negger]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20920803

Neuro-linguistic programming and application in treatment of phobias.
Karunaratne M.
Source

St Georges University of London, Cranmer Terrace, London SW17 0RE, United Kingdom. m0101039@sgul.ac.uk
Abstract

Phobias are a prevalent and often debilitating mental health problem all over the world. This article aims to explore what is known about the use of Neuro-linguistic Programming (NLP) as a treatment for this condition. Whilst there is abundant experiential evidence from NLP practitioners attesting to the efficacy of this method as a treatment for phobias, experimental research in this area is somewhat limited. This paper reviews evidence available in literature produced in the UK and US and reveals that NLP is a successful treatment for phobias as well as being particularly efficient due to the relatively brief time period it takes to effect an improvement.

[Stinger]

Originally Posted by Negger

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20920803

Surprising. Treating fobias is piss easy with hypnosis, but I'm surprised they actually managed to get NLP patterns work reliably with that large group.

[MrShit]

Originally Posted by Negger

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20920803

Neuro-linguistic programming and application in treatment of phobias.
Karunaratne M.
Source

St Georges University of London, Cranmer Terrace, London SW17 0RE, United Kingdom. m0101039@sgul.ac.uk
Abstract

Phobias are a prevalent and often debilitating mental health problem all over the world. This article aims to explore what is known about the use of Neuro-linguistic Programming (NLP) as a treatment for this condition. Whilst there is abundant experiential evidence from NLP practitioners attesting to the efficacy of this method as a treatment for phobias, experimental research in this area is somewhat limited. This paper reviews evidence available in literature produced in the UK and US and reveals that NLP is a successful treatment for phobias as well as being particularly efficient due to the relatively brief time period it takes to effect an improvement.

So what, did he examine published experiental evidence? I'm not paying for that article.